3NC HISTORY & HONOUR BOARD

[malice]

Sept 25, 2013 19:07:03 GMT -5 pm24 said:

Malice, your comments have been heard and are always appreciated. I understand your argument, however to address winnie's comment about cash being the motivator now, that is not true for those who are out of the race for winning the cash. That is, unless there is a payout to the winner of the consolation bracket.

I don't think anyone is in disagreement that a championship level squad can be built from any draft position, but the key question is how to ensure strong activity levels right through to the end of the season. Now obviously, nothing can be guaranteed, and I believe we have got a good group of active managers that are naturally competitive, but it has taken this league 6-7 years to get to this position. So it is understandable that there is a bit of nervousness to changing the way things are done.

I am somewhat shocked and astounded that some folk here think that people here *need* to be motivated to do this thing when winning overall ceases to be realistic.

[pm24]

Malice, you make some good points. Given the current group of managers, some of those fears or concerns about the motivation of other managers may be unnecessary.

The aim has always been for this league to have all managers being "competitive" until the very end. As we naturally have a very competitive group of guys now, it could be time for us to open up the way we do things.

However, I'm still not certain why a random draft is needed aside from the fact that some are of the view that the current approach is unfair to those who are less successful in a given year.

[leaguegod]

we're all competitive, no one is gonna chuck it in when they're out


but i think it does add somthing to lower seeding matches, the battle for 5th or 9th means something, its probably not a huge deal either way but i do enjoy that aspect

eh made a good point in the other thread, i don't agree with him re worst picking first

maybe in the future we can look at some sought of lottery system, each placing is weighted to a degree based on your performance last year but there is still a random aspect to the draft order

it could be a happy medium for all


just did it with draftpicklottery.com

Pick 1: suns
Pick 2: KAJ
Pick 3: eh
Pick 4: winnie
Pick 5: pp
Pick 6: budge
Pick 7: ua
Pick 8: reavers
Pick 9: NZP
Pick 10: force
Pick 11: hawks
Pick 12: munchymart
Pick 13: PM24
Pick 14: spurs

this obviously highlights the randomness of a lottery with how much reavers, force and UA dropped but it would atleast mean keeping in touch with the format some of us older managers love while adding a random side of it that alot want

[malice]

I like the "draft" idea.

Another idea might be that the guys out of the playoffs (playoff teams = the guys playing for money) - the consolation bracket: are playing for 1st pick next season. So, the team that wins the consolation bracket picks first the following season, and so on down... then after those guys the playoff teams pick.

I'm just all for the same group getting the top picks (I know this isn't always the way it works) each season. Definitely the game is weighted in your favor if you have a winning season, for the following season. And there are often things way outside of our control that contribute to that.

[pm24]

Sept 26, 2013 5:21:25 GMT -5 malice said:

Definitely the game is weighted in your favor if you have a winning season, for the following season. And there are often things way outside of our control that contribute to that.

I keep hearing this, and there is an element of truth to it, as I have obviously been one of the teams over the history of this league to be in this position (consistently near the top).

However, although I've consistently been in the playoff bracket, it has not always been because of having an early first round pick. It has been because I've made good choices in reaching for players in certain seasons.

For example here is a history of my draft picks and finishing position in this league:
Season 1 - finished 3rd after picking 6th (autodraft lol)
Season 2 - finished 2nd after picking 3rd
Season 3 - finished 8th after picking 2nd
Season 4 - finished 1st after picking 8th
Season 5 - finished 6th after picking 1st
Season 6 - finished 2nd after picking 6th
Season 7 - finished 2nd after picking 2nd
Season 8 - finished 10th after picking 2nd

If anything, although I have rarely been outside the top 6, when my team has been successful it has been because of those players I have picked later that have performed better than anticipated.

The top guys help, but injuries and other things can derail a season. I was pushing for the no.1 spot last season, until Varejao and then Noah went down, plus Amare and Nelson failing to play as much or perform as hoped. Gay had a real down year, which also hurt big time, but my season kept afloat because I grabbed Curry with a 3rd round pick. Anyone could have grabbed in the 2nd round but didn't and this season he'll go in the first 10 picks of the draft.

Luck and strategy has more to do with determining results than just draft position to me because the snaking draft format does enough to equalise the teams as it is.

[Reavers]

I'm really only if favor of keeping it the way it is or completely random, nothing in between.

[malice]

Sept 26, 2013 20:09:30 GMT -5 pm24 said:

I keep hearing this, and there is an element of truth to it, as I have obviously been one of the teams over the history of this league to be in this position (consistently near the top).

Err... to use such a very, very small sample size as "proof" means very little.
How on earth is there only an "element of truth" in stating that a team picking earlier gets better players???

You can decry it as there only being partially true all you like, it still remains a fact. To suggest otherwise is a bit surprising: the top players get picked at the front end of the draft dude...

[pm24]

I'm taking a whole team view rather than just focusing in the first round because one player does not determine success. To me the championship is won by picking well in the later rounds.

[malice]

Sept 27, 2013 19:57:58 GMT -5 pm24 said:

I'm taking a whole team view rather than just focusing in the first round because one player does not determine success. To me the championship is won by picking well in the later rounds.

Flawed process... but then random shouldn't matter to you either then if that's what you believe.

The best players - the game changing players (even for fantasy... hell, especially for fantasy, and ESPECIALLY for non-keeper leagues) - go at the beginning of the first round. Post that, players tend to level out. This is not conjecture PM.
The EASIEST decisions of the draft occur in the first 1-3 picks. Post that, it tends to get blurred.

Dude... you can keep posting theory if you like, but the above remains a reality, not a theory.

[pm24]

I don't disagree with you that the best players are in the first few picks of round 1, but how is that an argument for what you are proposing.

Is your point that it is somewhat unfair that the teams that win get the chance to pick those guys and that because they have those players they have a greater chance of success, therefore causing a cycle where the same managers are at the top of the rankings?? Or
Is it just that it's fairer if we have a random draft order because everyone then has a chance to get that first pick?

I don't disagree with what you're saying Malice, but I'm still left wonder, what is your point, and how does that link in with a proposal to go to a random draft.

I've already said I don't care which way it goes next season, I've only tried to provide an understanding of why some might be against it and asked for clarity around why we need it. To date, no-one has provided an explanation of what the rationale is for moving to a random draft.

[malice]

Sept 28, 2013 6:59:36 GMT -5 pm24 said:

Is my your point that it is somewhat unfair that the teams that win get the chance to pick those guys and that because they have those players they have a greater chance of success, therefore causing a cycle where the same managers are at the top of the rankings?? Or
Is it just that it's fairer if we have a random draft order because everyone then has a chance to get that first pick?

Aren't those two pretty much one and the same thing?
As stated before, this thread stemmed from me stating that I didn't think that we needed an 'honour board' as the way the league's currently set up encourages success from the same group of people.

Others pointed out that it is now a money league, there should be no necessity for further reward for winning.
The *rationale* of a random draft has been made (sorry to disagree dude) quite often.

Lastly... I didn't propose a random draft PM. Someone was merely being proactive and acted upon my comments.

[pm24]

Hey man, look, as I've said before I'm not fussed, I'll remain competitive regardless and will do what's best for the league regardless. That's why I'm prepared to autodraft if i'm the only one holding up the draft time.

I get the whole point about the money league being enough motivation during the season, but I see the flaw in that argument being that it only really works as a motivator for those with a chance to win some $$ near the end of the season.

Regardless, thanks for putting a nice summary of the main points into your post. I've not been trying to be argumentative, so it's appreciated that you provided the info.

I don't quite agree with the "honour board" statement, because I think in the history of the league we have seen people go in and out of the top rankings. But that's just my view. Regardless, the draft is not far away, time to get ready for that. Good luck.

[spurs champs]

I just better win this year thats all I know. I would still prefer a non money league.